Anxiety: Friend or Foe?

In this episode, Mary Louder, DO talks with Michelle Mandala Nigh all about anxiety, from whether it is helpful or harmful, to what it tells us and how it sends messages to the body, to options for helping people heal from trauma and other mental health issues, whether through medication, therapy, or coaching. Toward the end of the episode, they also touch on how different age groups face mental health work and approach life differently, and finally, to the shift coming in the model of medical care, spurred on by the rise of telemedicine throughout the pandemic. One to listen to, for sure!

Intro for "Since you put it that way" podcast.

Outro for "Since you put it that way" podcast

Transcript

Mary Louder: 0:20

Hi, I'm Dr. Mary Louder. And welcome to another episode of Since You Put It That Way. We have a special guest today, Michelle Mandala Nigh, and she is our new Health and Wellness Coach and our Mind Coach. And Michelle comes to us with master's degrees in both Clinical Mental Health Counseling and Holistic Nutrition. And currently, she serves as a mental health coach for the app called Ginger Headspace and in her own private coaching practice located in Missoula, Montana. And Michelle worked with the Missoula's children theater prior to going into mental health work. And she found that extra she drove a little red truck all around the country, both the United States and Canada, with Missoula's children theatre, and putting on plays and things like that, that she found working with the students and teaching them skills and giving them positive reinforcement was an approach that she found very helpful as she moved forward into her health and wellness coaching career. Now, we're going to be talking about anxiety today. And we're going to say, gosh, is anxiety friend or foe? We're going to look at that, we're going to look at how that signals and gives signals to the body. And I know we've talked about anxiety before, but I see it and continue to see it every day in work and practice. And so I think it's going to bear repeating. And I think Michelle's got some very interesting thoughts on this as well. And this is a good way for everybody get introduced to her. And as we bring her into our work together. The other thing that we're going to talk about is anxiety in the various age groups and how we've handled COVID. Different experiences, from Baby Boomers to Gen-Xers to the Millennials, etc. So that's a little bit of part of the conversation. And then mind and nutrition coaching, what does We're transitioning our model here from Mary Louder, DO over to Cairn Medical, now cairns are those stacks of rocks by the side of the trail, those guide the way, they guide the path. And my heart is for the work that we do together to be a guidance for you to find your best way forward in your health and wellness care. So that's why we've renamed the practice Cairn Wellness, it's the same people doing the same work, slightly different names. So you'll see different names on and different branding on the website. And for the details about joining the membership and joining our practice, please go to the website at drmarylouder.com. And you'll be able to review that that really mean? and you'll be able to set up a visit to discuss what your needs are and discuss where you fit in that membership model and how we can best serve you and provide care for you. So welcome today, to Since You Put It That Way, talking about Anxiety: Friend or Foe, with myself and Michelle Mandala Nigh who is our new mind

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 3:14

Thank you, Mary. It's such an honor to and nutritional coach. Enjoy the episode. So welcome, Michelle, be here.

Mary Louder: 3:19

Well, you know, we have to start with how we met. to our podcast. We met as alumni from the University of Montana, go Grizz. Yeah, out in Missoula, Montana. And I came across your profile on LinkedIn. And went, Hmm, interesting credentials. I wonder what it would be like to have a conversation with her. And so we did. And so then what happened after that conversation?

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 3:56

Well, that was an amazing conversation. It--I, I felt, I--there are few people in the world that I feel so aligned with, immediately, on, on so many levels. We had very similar views on physical health, mental health, spiritual health, that the heart is so important to our healing, that the body is designed to heal itself. And that all of these components work together. And this all kind of came out in our initial conversation and the conversations that we had following it. And it it really, it was exciting. It was very exciting to hear. Generally, when you, when you listen to what's out there in the medical world, you don't hear that kind of, of, acknowledgement that all of our dimensions have to work together in order to create health and to live in a state of ease rather than dis-ease.

Mary Louder: 5:03

Right. That's exactly right. And I first was hooked the fact that you are at the University of Montana. And you know, I was there 1980 to 1985 and I had some of my best years ever there, in my life. And Missoula holds such a dear place in my heart, that when, and seeing, you know, I haven't seen a lot of things come out of the university that was so holistic, you know? And then finding your connection that way and how holistic you were, I thought, Well, boy, this is really something, you know? And so that was the initial attraction for me. And I agree after our conversation. I just went around going, where have you been my whole life? It's like, it was like, it's not an alter ego. It's not even, it's there's nothing contra. It's like, soul sisters. It's like, this is like my tribe.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 6:07

Yes. Yes.

Mary Louder: 6:08

The type of medicine that I'm practicing, requires tribe members. And a colleague of mine out of Boulder said, Well, you're going to find your tribe soon. I said, people have been telling me that since 2006, and I said, whatever, I've just, keep going. And I think for the honestly, for the first time, I said, Oh, this is this in my tribe, this is like, this is really something that can make a difference and an impact with how I'm providing care as a physician.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 6:45

Yeah, we're definitely on the same frequency, the same vibration. And sometimes it can be hard to remember that that's, that's an a hugely attractive force. So even though you're in, in Michigan, and I'm in Montana, that was, we were bound to meet just because of what we've been putting out there in, in the world. And I was telling one of my best friends about you. He was like, Oh, my God, I mean, it's like she, she's, she loves everything that you are passionate about. And that is, her profession is everything you're passionate about. And I was like, I know!

Mary Louder: 7:23

I know. I know. So we just said, and, and, you know, that's actually a vulnerable spot to be in, when you find someone that aligns so much, because it's like, this could be too good to be true. Where's the other shoe and when's that going to drop? Right? Because of how vulnerable the idea of the emotion of joy, you know, and then you've got that backdoor the foreboding joy of what's you know, can't be that good. Really, where's it going to, you know, what's going to blow up? And it just happened, it just, that just has not happened, it's just gotten better and better.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 7:59

I agree, and I think it's because you and I, we move toward the highest common denominators between us, and in the world at large. Whereas the kind of habitual habit people go into is to come together on the lowest common denominator. And then if you do that, that, that, that really shifts the vibration, and it shifts the relationship, and then it becomes more about what won't happen rather than the possibilities.

Mary Louder: 8:31

Right. That's a good point. I see you're gonna be spurring me on my the rest of my life here, I believe. Which is good, which is good. Rarely, rarely do people keep up with me, and I think youe going to be just fine. And so, I welcome, I welcome the connection, it's not a challenge, I just welcome the connection.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 8:55

I do, too, I--and, because I experience the same thing, rarely, rarely do I meet people that I, that I can have these sorts of conversations that we have with each other on a regular basis, and they just, they just continue to expand.

Mary Louder: 9:14

Right.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 9:14

And that's, I think that just is, that's very grounding for me. It's, it's a beautiful, it's and I think this is the way the world is going to continue to evolve as we all find kind of our soul tribe, our soul family, professionally, as well as socially. Things are just gonna kind of fall into place in ways they never had before.

Mary Louder: 9:44

Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I think, what we're seeing too, if we just talk existentially about the world for a little bit for a minute, otherwise we'll you know, fall off that cliff. But we don't really want to go exactly there, but we will a little bit. But, you know, you've got that sense of chaos just before a breakthrough. Yes. And I would say you know, in the last, I don't know I'm sure there's aspects of according to the pandemic, because that was, you know, very much put into our faces about change and chaos. But even after that, or during that, my heart was to evolve and change my practice. I mean, I left the brick and mortar to do things completely virtually, wasn't ever going back to the clinic, wasn't gonna hang a shingle, wasn't gonna, wasn't gonna, wasn't gonna. And I was good with that until all of a sudden, I wasn't good with that. And I'm like, gotta hang a shingle. So, over here in Holland, Michigan, I've hung a shingle again. And so I'm doing a hybrid model. And in deciding to do the hybrid model, it became very clear that everything I do is transformational, not transactional.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 11:06

Mmm.

Mary Louder: 11:07

Which led to the biggest shift in my practice in my entire career of moving into a membership model. And we've announced that, and we've announced that it's happening, and this is something we're rolling out, well, not sure exactly when this podcast will come out. But for dating and timing, we're thinking of October 2023. So we'll date that here for this podcast. And so that being the case, finding and connecting with you brings about some concept of, I mean, the term would be like a mini me, but you're not really a mini me, you're just like another me, but you're you. And then vice versa. But we've got these two arms, we've got the clinical arm here of medicine, we've got the mental health, mindset, mind and nutrition component, which is what you bring with your work with the clinic--with the holistic nutrition and the, you know, really the holistic therapy. And that's really how people change.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 12:21

Yes. Yes. it's it's moved away. It's moving away from this model of, I'm the physician, I'm going to fix you, you're broken, to, all right, well, how are all of the components in your life working together in a way that is either working for you or not for you? And how can we make some changes? How can we transcend what's happening now? How can we transform? How can we transmute and help you shift to ways that are going to allow your body and your mind to heal itself?

Mary Louder: 13:03

Right? Well, big pushback in our, you know, community from that from, you know, Big Pharma.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 13:15

Yeah.

Mary Louder: 13:16

Insurance companies, you know, those folks have got it dialed in how they're making the money off keeping people sick. And they're making the money off of taxpayer dollars. I mean, you know, some of somebody who was exploring my practice the other day asked me why I no longer take insurance. And I said, it's now unethical for me to do so. I said, because the insurance money comes from, a lot of it comes from taxpayer dollars. 67% of the profits are subsidized by American taxpayer dollars for the big insurance companies, and they're making 10s of billions like 34 billion profit in a quarter. Yet we've got higher deductibles, higher premiums, more prior authorizations, and less coverage.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 14:07

Yes, yes, that's, it's so frustrating as a consumer, but also as somebody who works in mental health and seeing how many people still don't have access to mental health, to therapy, to coaching, to, to anything that they can--to anything that they can really hold on to, except for perhaps they could maybe get some pharmaceuticals. And that's, that's not a fix. That's not a, it's not a way to change your life. That's not a way to move you away from that sort of being.

Mary Louder: 14:46

Right. And the vast majority of the patients that I've treated have come to me after they've been through psychiatry, therapy, multiple medications, multiple specialists and they go, nobody knows what's wrong with me. They say it's in my head. What do you do about it? I'm like, I'm not sure. Let me get back with you. That was years ago, that was like 20. So I've been practicing 30 years, so it was like 25, 26, 27 years ago. I'm like, I have to figure this out. Because I saw then that those fixes, those diagnostic tests, those multiple specialists, it wasn't what was working. And so we're taught the biopsychosocial model, where things are inter--intertwined. But we, it's--the talk is there, but the walk isn't there. Yeah. Because what we were taught was that, but then we were really told to rely upon pharmaceuticals, on, you know, on leaning heavily on diagnoses, and that diagnosis then would be driving the care. And I actually think diagnoses, like if you come up one--with one, Generalized Anxiety Disorder, what does that do? It allows you to get reimbursed. It allows you to put someone in a category, it allows you to write things around there for parameters for treatment options. And then the rest is crickets.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 16:34

Yeah.

Mary Louder: 16:36

It really doesn't teach you what to do. Or as a

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 16:46

Right. Right. Yeah, the whole idea of anxiety, I think that's--since the pandemic, it's just exploded. And there are many people--that that's primarily what I work with on a daily basis, right now. People are, they feel so disconnected from themselves. And they're living in this state where their, their heart is constantly racing, their minds are constantly racing they're, they feel out of control, they just, they, they try harder and harder and harder to get control of what's going on around them. And what they don't have is, first they don't have any skills, they don't have patient, give you any idea that that diagnosis can even change. any skills and understanding what's happening to them. What changes they can make in their lives, to help this. Instead, they think that there's something wrong with them, that there's something that needs to be fixed. And that's, that's not, I don't think, I don't think that that gives people the tools they need to cope without a professional. And these are, these are tools that we use to have when we were more connected to the earth, when we were less in front of electronics, when we had more free time, when we ate real food. When we didn't--so many people when I ask them, what what do you do to help yourself? What, what practices do you do now to help you relieve stress? And so many people say, I watch Netflix, or I play video games. And all that does is disconnect you even further from yourself, not getting to the root of things. And when people start to reconnect to themselves and acquire a toolbox. They, they then see--and when they get an understanding of what anxiety is, it's a from my point of view, anxiety is a--it's information. It's information for you to--all of our emotions are. All emotions are information. It's your body and your mind trying to tell you something. And we tend to stuff it down and then push it away and think it's not important. But that, you know as Bessel van der Kolk said, you--The Body Keeps the Score, things are going to show up in your body, things are going to show up in your mind to say hey, hey, hey, let's let's let's look at this further. And so, when people start to see the anxiety as more of a friend, as perhaps somebody, a part of you that's being very over-protective, because that's our stress response when people understand what the stress response is and they start to go oh, okay, so I'm--my body is responding this way as a way to protect me from something. And how can I--what, what is it fearing? What, what's coming up for me? What have I not dealt with? I feel like most of the time with mental health, people either don't have the tools to work with something, or they haven't released something. They haven't processed and released something. And when they understand how they can begin to do that, both of those areas, they have more control over how they move through the world, and thus over how their mind and body are, are speaking to them.

Mary Louder: 20:59

I think that's a really good point that you say that anxiety is a request for more information. And actually, in my webinar, My Anxiety Code, that's exactly what I put in there. I said, anxiety is just asking for more. You just want more information so you can make a different decision. And it just means you don't have the information that you're looking for to make a decision and something feels unsafe. And the safety issue is super important because the safest place to be, from my philosophy as a physician, is connected to yourself. And all trauma does, or traumatic events that causes a trauma response in our body, that causes us to dissociate. And Dr. Gabor Maté really talks about this extensively in the Wisdom of Trauma film that he's put out, it's kind of a documentary film, but also his books that he talks about this a lot. And that dissociation is where you're literally beside yourself. And you're literally not connected. And so you don't have that same level of insight. But the same--but we're wired for love, belonging and connection. We're hardwired for that. We have biological, neurological sciences that show us that. They show us the pathways for that. And Brené Brown talks about this a lot through her work with emotion, shame, vulnerability, and courage. And the most often one of the hardest persons to be the most vulnerable with is ourself.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 22:39

Yeah.

Mary Louder: 22:40

And that comes we find that when we try and look in a mirror at ourselves.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 22:49

Yeah, that takes a lot of strength.

Mary Louder: 22:52

And the person who I think has done some the most groundbreaking work on that is Louise Hay.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 22:57

Yes.

Mary Louder: 22:58

You know, she has a 21-day and no, I'm not convinced it's a linear patterned 21-day just like there's, you know, the five stages of grief, it's not a linear pattern. I think Louise's 21-Day Mirror Work, you know, is nonlinear. I think you go through the lessons, but it doesn't. It could take, could take 21 weeks, you know, I just don't know. And that concept of first being vulnerable with yourself. And then allow that connection to yourself. From that place of safety from trusting yourself. Because one of the first people that--where the betrayal comes in, is where we betray ourselves. And I think that's a foundational betrayal that occurs because we have a trauma response whether we fight, flee, freeze, or we find any one of those concepts, we are often less than honest to ourselves. And that's not a way to be harsh, but it's just a way that we in that compromise that is a betrayal. And so then coming back to ourselves by reconnecting. By then trusting ourselves. So you've got love, belonging, connection, right there with yourself first and then from there, you can go anywhere. You can love, belong, and connect to wherever you and whoever you want to go to.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 24:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's beautifully, beautifully said that that connection that you and I both have to Louise Hay was one of the things that really, really was exciting as the relationship grew, and it's one of the--Louise's work has been a huge part of my own healing and what I recommend to people and--read You Can Heal Your Life, it's so self-empowering. And this, as you're talking about the--the disconnection and the lack of trust that that people have in themselves, this is--I find this over and over again, with people, that many, especially women, many have this intense need to people-please. And to do for others, not themselves. Self-care to them is, is a luxury. And they don't, they don't trust themselves to be able to, to not. That--they don't trust that they will be okay if they don't people-please. And when they start to understand, as their toolbox expands, when they start to understand as you, as you said, this trauma response that they--their behaviors developed as a--they're maladaptive in order to survive, and that they're living in that survival mode. Even though there's, there's no threat, there's no, there's no, nothing that is going to hurt them. So opening up to that vulnerability of first learning to trust themselves and say, I, it is okay for me to take care of myself, it is okay for me to prioritize myself. And I can develop daily habits that that put me first, in a way that doesn't mean I'm being selfish, or that I'm pushing other people away, that it all can work together. It doesn't have to be this or that way. It can be--it's collaborative. It's just like, all the dimensions of our health needing to work together. All of the parts of our body working together. There's not an area that's more important. It's all to create this oneness.

Mary Louder: 27:17

Right. And that trauma response, you know, is to keep us alive, right? So way, way back when, you know, when the saber-toothed tiger was, was catching us, which I'm sure he caught me many times. I'm a slow runner. Many times over. But, but anyway, so, to keep us alive, to keep us safe. And we don't have that same sense anymore. We have other things that sometimes we might call existential fears. But there are real fears and real threats to us in our culture. And, but even the threats to who we are as a person in our beingness is I think, something at the very core that I do think we've developed very sophisticated trauma responses to this. And the fawning response is one. You know, I was thinking about this about a year ago, and I was like, ah, you know, that's just not one response I see too often. You know, what? Well, it's like asking a fish what's water like. When I figured out really what the fawning response was, oh, wait a minute. That's what I've done my whole life. So, what that looks like in our modern culture, especially for women, is, doing too much. People-pleasing, but people-pleasing to a point of pathology, where you're putting everybody in front of yourself. And then those people come in to the doctor and say, I'm exhausted, I'm tired, I'm depressed. My blood pressure's up, my blood sugar's up, my weight's up, my hormones are off, can you fix me? Well, we can put band-aids on you with drugs, and we can do lab tests, and we can give you supplements. Still all superficial and still helpful, because there might be a new nutrient depletion, and your digestion might be off and we need to look at things functionally, to see how your gut's doing and see how your neurology is functioning. Yeah, we could, yes, yes, yes, yes. But even in the limits of functional medicine, where I've been practicing for over 25 years. It's not about taking, instead of a prescription, a supplement. So instead of a pill for an ill, it's a supplement for assist--for a symptom. It's actually getting down to the root causes. You know, and finding out who you are by your genomics. Using that as a blueprint. Understanding what works for you exercise-wise, how you--how stress affects your cells, how stress affects your oxidative pathways. And then you begin to see these patterns emerge that you can literally write a story of how you've been, but even more importantly, how you could be, based upon the blueprint that's in front of you.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 30:13

Yeah, yeah, that's--it--the idea of a blueprint is, for me, I think this will resonate with so many people is, it gives you this this foundation to grow on, rather than people coming from this viewpoint of what's--what's wrong, what do I need to take away, let's not think of it that way. Let's think of it as how can you expand? How can you move into things that are more functional for you, that do enhance you.

Mary Louder: 30:52

Right. Because by and large, we think we're not good enough. We don't have enough, we don't know enough. We don't have lots of things enough. Whatever the enough is, we aren't enough. That's one of the core things that we all struggle with as humans. So if we were to normalize that and see that is part of the human condition. And then we've got tools to find out who you are, because you are certainly enough. You're not too much. And you're not not-enough. You're just exactly who you're meant to be. And then from there, understand the nutrient support, the exercise support, the, you know, pathways where there might be some vulnerabilities, I call them, you know, roads under construction, takes you a little bit longer to navigate through, but you can still get there. And you begin to see the story emerge of who you are. And, you know, I'm talking a little bit about the genomics right now, but I literally, if I've never seen the patient, but I've read their genomics, I can tell them a story. And I can say I wonder if this has happened, I won--and they go, How do you know those things? And it feels magical. And it might be, but really what it is, is seeing the patterns in front of them of who they are. And those are patterns we can't really escape from, so if you, you know, have a blueprint for a ranch house, you're going to build a ranch house, if you follow the blueprint.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 32:31

Yeah. Yeah.

Mary Louder: 32:33

You know, and the difference will be the quality of the construction based upon what you build, and the materials you use, and how you put things together. And that's true for our own health, too. So having really good tools that help in your toolbox, understanding anxiety and different emotions, I think emotions are as--just as keen as vital signs. And can be even taken like a vital sign.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 33:03

Yeah, yeah. It's the understanding of that, that emotions as information, that they're, they're going to help you tell that story of, of the genomics and also that you have choice. You have choice, because you--the emotions are trying to tell you something, and how you choose to use that information in a way that can move you out of that emotion and move you into a different one and how will that then impact how you're feeling physically? I don't think people realize that emotions create these chemical reactions in their body.

Mary Louder: 33:50

Right.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 33:51

Yeah, yeah. And having that--when I work with people with anxiety, I generally will explain the stress response and what happens in their body and that light bulb of there being a reason that it's happening is, is very empowering. People love to get the psychoeducation, the, the science behind things because then it then it feels more real. It feels more acceptable. If there's, if there's science behind it, it doesn't feel so woo, or so, this, the stigma mental health has had, or spirituality, could could sometimes trigger in people. But yeah, I love, I love how you're explaining that, Mary.

Mary Louder: 34:48

Yeah. Well, and I think of even anxiety, kind of like turbulence, you know, and, of course, my favorite artist is Pink. I just love everything about her. And she has a song on her latest album about turbulence and it's really a song of, she's, it was born out of teaching her daughter about anxiety.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 35:13

Hmm.

Mary Louder: 35:14

Partially coming through the pandemic, and partially just being a kiddo growing up. And so part of that song talks about, you know, how real things feel when your stomach just sinks, you know, it's such a real feeling. And you can--and when things occur that that are imagined, it's almost like they occurred and you have that same crash in your head, or in your heart. And really the same pathways are there for something we imagined, the neural pathways, versus something that actually occurs.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 35:50

And that's so fascinating, the body doesn't know the difference.

Mary Louder: 35:55

So that's a great way to get into and understand why thoughts literally can change our being. And why if we can change our thoughts, we change our health.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 36:14

Yeah, which is, so Louise's work.

Mary Louder: 36:17

Exactly. And so Louise, you know, in--post humorously give her a big hug here, understanding, I'm like, Louise, I'm gonna write this out for you. She's like, please go for it, please. This is what I'm looking for. The science was not quite there yet. So but looking at that is, you know, it goes in through here, which is, you know, considered our third eye or goes in through our eyes. Which then those neural pathways go to the pineal gland, that pineal gland that interfaces with our nervous system, our immune system, then into the pituitary hypothalamus, which is the endocrine system, which then has its influence over the dura, which is the covering around the spine, which interfaces with fascia, which is all those--the part that holds us together. And that fascia is kind of like a shape-shifting and carries so many neurotransmitters, and substances and molecules that communicate, which is probably one big neuroendocrine hormonal system, which then interfaces with our gut in the microbiome. And the microbiome is in us, but outside of us, because it goes through us, because it's in the gut. And then that dance occurs, you know, our genes and genomics against the microbiome, genomic of that, and the, the DNA of the microbiome, which is different because of all the bacterias. So we began to like, put all of that together. And it looks like there's more that comes up the pathway, than goes down. But what goes down is some of the important stuff. And that's where the thinking occurs. Right? That's where we can change the thoughts from the top down. Well, if your system's flooded by what your body is holding, traumatic responses, anxiety, different emotions that are just there, but not processed, you can't bring the higher centers, the prefrontal cortex online, it just can't, because it's flooded. And so there's more pathways going up and it gets stuck in the midbrain. The prefrontal cortex says, I'm just sorry, I'm exhausted. You've been making all these decisions, your dopamine is depleted, because it's one decision after the other. So you lose your ability for decision-making, you lose and just kind of cancel out some of the higher centers of executive functioning. And so then the thought, well just change your thoughts. Well, you can't, because it's like overwhelmed and discombobulated. So what do you do? Intentionally, you go to your eyes. Intentionally, you go to the pineal gland through your eyes. You can't just casually do it. Well, I think I'll think of good thoughts tomorrow. Won't happen, it can't. Because your systems. And then you begin to process some of that trauma. And how I'm doing that in my practice is with the Self Compassion and Connection model that literally brings you from being dissociated and separate from yourself, back into connection with yourself. Yeah. And when that occurs, then the next steps after that are some of the processes that we've used through, you know, excellent researched-out energetic psychology things of either the tapping or holding of chakras, which are energetic centers that allow these emotions to be processed. Some people have used EMDR where there's a buzzer in each hand, lots of different ways to do that. When processing occurs, you're not flooded upwards. The higher centers can come on. That intentional talk that goes in can begin to modulate downward, because the pathways are open.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 40:30

Yeah! It's, yeah, that's, I love hearing the science behind all that, because the aspects with your Self Connection and Compassion model, know, the, I feel like when you completely love and accept yourself, and you're doing it, you know, through your heart, that that--that's where the power of intention really activates. And well, yes, when it's hard to change

Mary Louder: 41:02

Yes. our physical, our emotional state, our thoughts from the level of thought, sometimes it helps to change your, your, your Yes. physical state to kind of shift that. And when you, when you, and that's why EMDR and all these modalities, as you say,

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 41:23

They're so aligned. And yes, when you're coming through the eyes, that there's a physical change there. And when people start to harness that, the intention behind the shifting, behind the changing, reconnecting all these aspects of themselves, then that, that, that turbulence that they're in, when you're saying they're flooded, what that allows, then, when you're in your, when you're in your root chakra, when you're is for you to, to kind of transcend that and go higher, where your executive function can come back on, where you do have that wider view of things, but that gets shut down in when you can't get past that feeling of, of the first three, of that feeling of safety, when you're constantly in fear. Your stress. Have you--I'm sure you've noticed this before, the, the, the similarity between the chakra system and Maslow's hierarchy of needs? sense of security, your sense of, of survival, you're living in that. You can't access these higher levels and learning how to be able to do that and change your response to fear, your, your, your automatic responses. When you, when you start to realize, actually, I don't need to be constantly in this reactive mode, our bodies and minds crave familiarity. That's why we go into these familiar responses because they feel right, even though they may not be serving us at all. When you start to learn to change that, that there's a choice there, then the neural pathways change, our automatic responses change, and you're healing yourself.

Mary Louder: 43:24

Yes, it's kind of like a radio dial, if we're a little bit off the station, it's fuzzy. But when you tune it, then you're right on, you hear the music or whatever, the news, whatever you're wanting to listen to. And so if we've got a frequency that's there, that is the stress response of one of the four, then we're going to tune to that, we're going to tune to one of those four stations. When we change that stress response and get more into the healing response into the peaceful, the contentment. That becomes--when that gets on your dial, as we call it, you know, you know, 1300 on your dial, when you're looking for a radio station, when that sense of the parasympathetic, which is the non-sympathetic side is on your dial, you can then find it. But it has to be on your dial. And then, you know, the repetitiveness of the tools, and the exercises, the meditation states, the walking, those things help that dial become more clear. And help to diminish that flooding that occurs.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 44:39

Yeah.

Mary Louder: 44:40

And just to be sure, and just to be clear, there are patients, and I've treated many patients with medications, where they've made a significant difference. And what's interesting about the mental health psychiatric world and I had honors in psychiatry, and I almost went into psychiatry. I loved it. But then I realized how pharmaceutically driven it was, and I wasn't interested in that. So I didn't go there. But, you know, at any given time in my practice, 60% of my care was mental health. Across the board. And you shared a statistic with me the first conversation that made me go. You remember what that was?

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 45:28

Yeah, it was the company that I worked for Ginger Headspace. They're very data driven. And I'm not sure if they did this study or if it was a study that they found, but in, in 100 people, the likelihood is that one of those people will need psychiatry. 24 will benefit from therapy. But the rest, the vast majority, they need coaching,

Mary Louder: 46:04

Which is 75--and it's 75 there.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 46:07

Yes. Yes. They need coaching. And coaching is, coaching is providing skills it's providing, it's providing a place for you to land for you to say, I'm here. I want to get there. How do I get there? And it's a very collaborative process. The line of coaching and therapy is, it can be blurry. Generally, we explain it as therapy, it deals more with diagnoses, and with how to--how moving into the past to figure out how this affects your now and your future. Whereas coaching is very much in the here and now. We do sometimes visit the past, we do sometimes visit--we often visit emotions, we often visit, you know, what's going on around you, your environment. But it's a very collaborative approach to how can you really be the person that you most want to be in all levels, from, for me, that's, that includes body, mind, heart and soul, and skills, the relationship, the unconditional positive regard, the, the, the intention, it's, that's, that's all a part of it. And I find many of the people that I've worked with have said that, that coaching was much more helpful than, than therapy, because what can often happens, is in therapy, it depends completely on the therapist, of course. But for some people, they've had the experience of just sitting with where they are, and constantly going back to past experiences going back, going back, going back, and it doesn't allow them to move forward. They haven't released, they just continue processing and processing and processing. They don't--what--my view on this comes, I think from, I loved my training. I had--the, the, the training I had for counseling was I think among the best, I think the program that I went through is among the best in the country. And, but, what many counseling perspectives--theories come from is this, this idea that the the, the therapist should be very hands-off. And how I've noticed many interpret that is that they're just, they're just, they're just providing the container. And that eventually people will come to where they are supposed to. They'll, they'll figure out their own answers. And that's based on Carl Rogers. And I agree with that to a point. But my own experience of therapy was that I was constantly sitting in my, where I was, and I wasn't being given any kind of feedback that was going to help me push me forward. How do I get out of this? What, what do I do? I don't have the answers. That's why I came to therapy. So I feel like coaching kinda moves that in a different direction of where the coach and the client can work together.

Mary Louder: 49:46

Right.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 49:47

Yeah.

Mary Louder: 49:47

Yeah, well, there's an evolution of the model you're talking about, because we're taking things from a paternalistic doctor knows best, the therapist lets you figure it out, but they know best, because they let you figure it out. And then you take this tablet, pat you on the head, and off you go. So the you know, the 100-million-dollar question is, how's that working for you? Not so well. That's why, you know, people are seeking out different ways. And that's why, as a, I agree 100% as a physician, I mean, I mean, if, you know, if you want to have a study in codependency, look at a really good physician. They're helping people get well, but in order for them to--a physician to do well and get high marks for whoever they're working for, people have to like them. I mean, it's, I will just tell you, it's a no-win situation. And in that process, as you're trying to, you know, just tell people what to do. Now, that works great in urgent care. Yeah, you fell, you broke your wrist, let's put a splint on, we're good to go. Twisted your ankle, let's put this brace on, give you some crutches, because you can't weight bear. Awesome, perfect. Chest pain. Let's give you some nitro. Let's open up that vessel, let's get, you know, excellent. We do really good care in a lot of ways. It's the, the chronic care. The how did we get there? How did we get to this position? How do we, you know, essentially reverse-engineer our way back? And you're right, the tools that we have or don't have are super important. And so tools can be medication, tools can be supplements, understanding your neurotransmitters, tools can be having an accurate diagnosis so you know, the steps forward tools can be using some therapy to understand the past and things that have occurred. And

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 51:45

Yes, I can see that. then the coaching tools that come on to live now in the present and going forward. So there's a way and the collaboration of that model is really what you're doing by bringing the different aspects together. You're collaborating with what we know to be good. But what we know doesn't work is, multiple medications without a clear diagnosis that causes lots of side effects and people have low yield. Right? We know that. And we know that many people still suffer with that. And that happens not just in the mental health world, but that happens in the physical world too, of, you know, clinical medicine, you know, for blood pressure medicines, and nobody's really addressing the fact that your job is killing you. You know, or you're laboring under something that you've, you know, that's just absolutely a false impression and a false standard, that you really need to adjust. Whether it's a relationship you need to change, abandon, whatever, or, you know, work situation, or other expectations, that again, the the body and the brain can't differentiate between what's real and imagined. Yeah. Yeah, I think these the silos of mental health and physical health, you know, we'll work on this, you work on that. It's, it's so a thing of the past and people are realizing that. And you mentioned the bio--psycho--psycho social--social psych--Bio,

Mary Louder: 53:23

Say it fast five times, I dare you.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 53:29

Biopsychosocial model.

Mary Louder: 53:33

Well done Not easy for you to say, but well done.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 53:39

Yes, you mentioned that. And I think that, ideally, that is the foundation that we should be working from, but we haven't, and it's nobody has--very few people, very few practitioners have been able to bring that all together. And individualize it for--because people are, you know, what, what works for somebody may not work for another person. And--

Mary Louder: 54:08

Well, I have an idea why they haven't been able to bring it together. The only reason I've been able to bring it together, which is different from saying I have it together, I would just like to make that distinction, not that I have it all together. Not confuse the two there. The reason that people, it's hard for physicians, clinicians to pull that together, I had to walk away from everything I knew, and how I practiced, in order to put that together. And I had to change my model. And I had to change who I worked for. And I had to change and, and follow the, really, my intuitive voice on this. All the stuff I've learned clinically, scientifically. But there isn't a model exactly for that. And I think to be honest, I think that's what--in our collaboration coming together, we're literally creating a new model and I dare say that--where's the echo machine?

We need an echo machine on this: 55:18

New, new, model, model, we're really, I mean, we need to put a stake in the sand here and say, there's a new model coming forth. And this is going to be different. And it's going to be impactful. And it's going to change people's lives. And it doesn't matter if you're on a medication or not, doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Doesn't matter if you have a diagnosis, or if you have, you know, significant trauma, you know, all those components, wherever you're at, is where you enter, find the tools, find the nutrition, follow your genome. And then you begin to connect and reconnect with yourself. And you begin to let the mind help heal you. And really lean, then, on the inherent capacity for the body to heal.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 56:18

Yes, yes. It's, it--when, as you explain it like that, it's just like, how could it be any other way? It can't be any other way. And I think that the physicians today, and therapists today, everybody's feeling frustrated, like this just, this just isn't working. I can work with this part of you. But I know that there's other aspects, because, you know, with, with therapy, or with regular coaching, I can't necessarily, I can ask people like, what are you eating? Like, what, what's going into your body? But I, I can't--unless I'm working with a physician, I can't tell them what, what to eat, I don't know what would work for them.

Mary Louder: 57:08

Right. And then that--you're speaking of scope of practice, how do you, you know, and with, in our highly regulated system of more the states dictate what's going on in medical care, thank goodness, it saved us from a lot of problems, but at the same time, something taken to an extreme is a bit too much. So we've got--and then we've got folks, because I know patients are frustrated. I get it, I hear it every day. And so then people enter the field to help, and completely well intended, but then they go past their scope. And that's called scope-creep. That's a business term. But in clinical, the clinical world, that means you're doing something you're not exactly licensed for or credentialed for. Or you might not have an accreditation. And the states read that differently, all 50 of them. And so it's tricky. It's a slippery slope, sticky wicket, but can be navigated. And I think this is an area that we're going to see more and more evolution in and we see like with telemedicine where, you know, that came out during the pandemic, and then they were trying to pull it back. That's, that is one genie, that's not going back in the bottle. I'll tell you what, it's just has sprung out of the can, not going back in, because there's value in that. So we're going to see the consumer driving things. We're going to see, you know, reimbursement models driving people to make different choices. I think that--and I think people want results. And they want different results than what they're getting.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 58:54

Yes. Yes, yes, they do. I think there's there's a revolution brewing. There's, people are--what we've been doing has not been working in so many levels of the world. And as you mentioned telehealth, and the trickiness of state lines, this is something that I, I thought would change once telehealth became a thing is that all these individual requirements, licensing for all kinds of professionals across state lines, we're--we live globally. Why, why are we being confined to licenses per state or, or trainings per state? It doesn't--it doesn't make any sense anymore.

Mary Louder: 59:50

No, and it's driven by two things probably: control and--which would be power, and money.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 59:58

Yes.

Mary Louder: 1:00:00

So, you know, I'm all for universal health care. We absolutely need it in this country. Absolutely everyone should have coverage. Everyone should have care. And so for the physicians, if we're going universal in our coverage, we should have universal credentialing across 50 states.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 1:00:18

Yeah.

Mary Louder: 1:00:19

And that was just needs to absolutely go that way. Completely, totally.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 1:00:25

Yes. Because then you could really find who you're aligned as. Look at us, we're, we're across straight--state lines. Yeah. And that's, that's one of the beauties of coaching is that we aren't required to--if I was, if I had pursued my license as a therapist, I would be confined to Montana, unless I got the credentialing for across the rest of the country. But that's, that's so much work. And so limiting. And the work that I really love doing is, is the coaching.

Mary Louder: 1:01:08

And that's one area that I'm really expanding into because of access. Absolutely. Because it's about education. Physician actually means educator, or teacher, actually, means teacher, physician means teacher. And it's really what I am. And really, I'm a healer that teaches, as I would say, and so, in recognizing that, taking down the barriers, so, and I thought that's what telemedicine would do, which it did. But if you don't have a shingle, nobody can find you. It's the funniest thing. Nobody, all of a sudden, I have a shingle, even though I'm not there every day, people find me. The fact that there's a physical address, they say, Oh, well, we found your address. I'm like, Okay, well, I'm there maybe half a day a week. In person, but that's--and that's fine, because that's a great resource. And so this changing of the model that we're proposing. This, we're not even proposing, we're doing it, we're committed, we're in, you know, there's no, there's no way back now. It's like we're on the, we are on that wild ride of roller coaster we have left where we could bail, right? We're in. And so it's going to be super dynamic, and it's going to be really, really fun to see where this goes. And we've, you know, coming together, so you know, thinking about anxiety, just as we kind of picked on that today as an, as a diagnosis, as a set of symptoms, as a messenger, as a friend. You know, and if we look at our emotional and mental health that way. And yeah, there are some things that require stabilizing therapeutically, absolutely, give you that. Can do. Got the tools for that. But that's that 1%, maybe.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 1:03:09

Yeah, that's very true.

Mary Louder: 1:03:13

I would not be surprised if in what we would call clinical medicine, all the physical parts, if that statistic didn't bear out pretty similarly. One person would need a physician, 24 could use mid-level, advanced practitioner, support and care. 75% of people could use lifestyle coaching.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 1:03:36

Yes, yes. Yeah, I completely agree. And the beauty of that is the ripple that that will cause because I think oftentimes the people that are in that, the one, or the 24, that the--it's the result of being brought up by people or having experiences with people that have not had any kind of mental health care. So as we start to improve mental health care and access, people--and people start to heal themselves, we're going to have less need for the heavy-handed more the--the heavier approaches, the more all-in approaches, because people will be living in a lifestyle that is healing. They'll have tools, they'll be brought up with tools, you know, the, the, what I noticed about the younger generations, let's say, my son, who's 16, the the 20, 20-somethings that I work with now, is they're they're interested in health first. They're interested in, how do I, how do I make my life work? This, this, this world that I'm moving into, it's completely against me taking care of myself. I want to put that first. That's that's a big difference between them and the Boomers or the Gen Xers who are used to this hyper, hyper world of where we don't take care of ourselves, we take care of everything else we before we, we look to ourselves.

Mary Louder: 1:05:30

Yeah, so if he's a, he's a Gen Z, right? So, they say right now that they're seven generations alive. And I'm, I'm reading this. So I'll be clear on that. So we've got from 1901 to 1924, we've got the Greatest Generation born. I'm not sure how we arrived at that, but that's the reference here. Then we've got the Silent Generation between 1925 and 1945. And in keeping with that, I have nothing to say. Then we've got the Baby Boomers, we've got the Boomers--I don know what to say about it. My apologies to all those folk folks born in that timeframe. Send the hate mail somewhere else. So then we've got the Boomers between 1946 and 1964, of which I'm one of those, closer to the 64, let me put it that way, than the 46. And then Generation X, which is 65 to 1980.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 1:06:36

And that's me.

Mary Louder: 1:06:37

Okay. And then we've got Millennials, which I always thought they'd like cuspid sat over the millennial, but they don't it's 1981 to 1996. So didn't cross over the Y2K thing. I thought that's what really was about and then Gen Z, is really what crossed over, you know, into the 21st century from 1997 to 2012. And then there's yet one more the Generation Alpha 2013 to 2025. I have no concept of that yet. Don't know.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 1:07:16

Yeah. Well, if we look at, so my son's very interested in being an alpha, and his, I mean, living his life as an alpha, let us say, and I think when, you know, as a Gen X-er when I think of the the term alpha, it, it has almost a negative kind of toxic quality to it. But he sees it differently. He sees it as to live as an alpha means that you're a leader, that you live in integrity, and that you show up where you are supposed to show up. He says, if you don't do that, then you're living beta. And so I would say that I'm not sure that that's how they're defining the alphas now, but I think that that alpha generation, they're just, they're growing up in a world that is completely different. They're growing up when the vibration is higher, when people--they may be, be born of parents who have done their healing work already. And so they're going to raise those children in a way that is, it's just gonna, it's just gonna, we are at a time when we are just exponentially expanding. And the technology is, the level of information, and it's, it's just not--these children are going to, they're coming in with already a level of knowing that, that, that we, we were nowhere near.

Mary Louder: 1:08:55

That's true. And I've seen those kids are my second cousins. My youngest cousin we have--has six kids. Absolutely every one of them is an alpha. I don't know what year that, I, well, they're between that the end of the Z and the on the Alpha. Amazing kids. Their sense of self, their sense of of individuality, individuation, inter-relatedness, cooperation, collaboration, insight. I haven't seen anything like that before.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 1:09:38

That's so exciting.

Mary Louder: 1:09:39

It is. It's just fast. And it's fascinating to watch them, and I have a little neighbor back behind us that--well, the kids are the little neighbors and absolutely, they are, absolutely they are of this mindset, you know, and we put--for a Christmas project, put gingerbread houses together. Oh my gosh. That was just absolutely inspiring to watch them all create and what they did. Mind you, I built the houses, doing them different this year, because they'll be easier. But that was a project, it took lots of frosting, but then to watch them each, you know, go into that. And they--not any single one of them was daunted by it. And we're talking in age from like eight down to four, or 10 down to four.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 1:10:40

Wow.

Mary Louder: 1:10:42

The littlest one, he was one and a half. And I think that was his first introduction to sugar, which was not exactly my intention, but, he thought marshmallows were the best invention. But to watch them tackle something, they didn't have--they weren't unsure.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 1:11:07

Yeah, yeah. There's like this, this confidence, and a sense of how can I use my innate abilities to, to create. You know, your generation, my generation, we were never trained to think for ourselves within the collective. We were, we were, we were trained to fit in and that, we would go against our natural inclinations in order for us to fit into the world. And that, that I mean, that right away your erodes, self-trust, like I don't, I don't know what I'm supposed to do, because the world hasn't told me what I'm supposed to be doing. And I think this new generation, is they just, they don't have that. They don't have this need to fit into the world, the way it's set up, they're here to create a new world.

Mary Louder: 1:12:10

Yeah. Which will be kind of fun, because Lord knows we need the help.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 1:12:18

We do. And that just gives me so much hope for even the the Gen is it Gen Y? My son's a Gen Y-er. That generation, it's the same. They're, they're just--I feel like they're, they're way far ahead, emotionally and mentally than where I was at, at that age. They're--

Mary Louder: 1:12:47

Well, we were. We were told what to think. You know, as a Boomer, I was told what to think I was told, and then when I did share what I thought, I was told no, that's not what you really think. Right? I thought it was. I remember as a kid walking around going, I think that's what I thought, though, I'm pretty sure that's what I felt. I'm pretty--I literally remember having conversations as young as four years old with myself about that. I'm pretty sure I feel

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 1:13:15

Oh! that, you know, so. And even down to where that infiltrated

Mary Louder: 1:13:19

You know, and then what happened that night, medicine interestingly, when I was 12, my appendix came out, and, it burst. And I had been to the doctor, I think two or three times, I remember the physician saying, Well, you have sore stomach muscles from throwing up, I said, but I haven't been throwing up. And he dutifully patted me on the head and said, Yes, you have little girl. I'm like, I think I would know if I would be throwing up. kaboom, my appendix burst. And then I had to have emergency surgery, I almost died, blah, blah, blah. Very interesting. You know, and in my career, I've never missed an appendicitis. I've convinced a few surgeons that that patient has appendicitis. There's a look in their eye when they have appendicitis, I promise you.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 1:14:14

Interesting.

Mary Louder: 1:14:14

Once you've been on the other end of that, you will never miss that look. You know, so there's something to be said about experience and listening to the patient because they will tell you what's wrong with them. And so not presuming that, but that's like a whole nother topic we could have a diatribe on as well. But that would be fun, too. But, but I think, you know, today to just kind of wrap up with the, you know, the I think the pandemic, I think we could say, spurred us on to look at anxiety differently. Because we had to function. We have to function. Can old dogs be taught new tricks. I think the answer is yes.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 1:14:55

Yes, absolutely. And the the pandemic just spotlighted what's not working.

Mary Louder: 1:15:01

Right.

Michelle Mandala Nigh: 1:15:02

And so it helped create the shift of people saying, Wait, things really aren't working and and apparently it's not working for anybody. I think it was the first time people allowed themselves to not think they were--they were the only ones struggling.

Mary Louder: 1:15:16

Right. And I think, too, opening our hearts, our minds to a new model, a new concept, being willing--willing to trust ourselves, the answers will come with that, the tools can be provided, and we can learn and grow and come out of stress responses. You know, this is the planet of trauma, it's a very traumatic planet to live on. And it's not the planet of the blue foamy drinks, I do know where that planet is, and I've been there and I enjoy it, but it's not here. On Earth, it's very problematic here to be an Earthling. So, as we, you know, tease that apart, existentially what that means, medically, clinically, mental health-wise, nutrition-wise, really what we've done, and Michelle, now what you and I will be doing, is going forward and creating and developing and further working this new model of care. And so to that end, I've named it Cairn Health, or Cairn Medical. And cairns are those stacks of rocks by the trail that guide your path. And so we will be guiding people's paths together. And this will probably be one of our, probably many podcasts that we share together, you know, going forward as we continue to develop our work together and continue just to bring, really, health and wellness and healing to those folks that want to join in and be a part of this. So, I appreciate you being here today and taking your time to introduce yourself to us and to our pod squad that listens. To the people who are interested, you know, please just go to my website at drmarylouder.com. And you can get all the information for membership models that we've adjusted to and grown into and what the health and wellness models look like and how to work with Michelle and everything. It'll be all right there for you to look at. And so we just invite you to join us if you feel so inclined if that if that really speaks to you for the way forward for your health and wellness. So until next time, we thank you for being here with us on Since You Put It That Way, and we bid you a good day.